Interview: Zoe Murdock, LDS, polygamy, religious fiction writing
August 9th, 2009 by Menachem Wecker
Zoe Murdock is author of Torn by God: A Family’s Struggle with Polygamy (my review here). I first got in touch with Zoe on Twitter (follow her here). She mentions a lot of her bio and her Mormon upbringing in her answers that follow, so I won’t reproduce them here.
MW: Most of my readers know very little about Mormonism and have never been to Utah. What do you think are some of the misconceptions about Mormonism that should be cleared up from the start?
ZM: My first-hand knowledge of Mormonism is based on my childhood experience. I pretty much stopped attending church when I left home at 19. However, I did a fair amount of research while I was writing my novel, and I have read and thought a great deal about the LDS Church, and its various fundamentalist off-shoots, in recent years.
When I see Mormons represented in the media, or in film, or in programs like HBO’s Big Love, I recognize the image and the storyline, but it is almost always a limited and stereotypical view. The problem arises because Mormons are generally portrayed in the context of their past. Mormons today are a diverse group of individuals, much more so than in the past. I recently read that today only 12 percent of Mormons live in Utah, and less than half live in the United States. My novel, Torn by God: A Family’s Struggle with Polygamy takes place in the late 50s. Utah was much more homogeneous at that time, especially in a small town like the one I grew up in where very few people were non-Mormon.
I think the reason these stereotypes persist is because when it comes to the LDS Church, the past is much more interesting than the present, especially for today’s media which always looks for something titillating or controversial. The Church has been trying to move away from some of its more controversial originating doctrine. They have tried to play down the media’s incessant tendency to draw a connection between the mainstream Church and off-shoot groups such as the FLDS, but they can’t seem to escape the past. I think I know why. What we have is a modern day church trying to evolve. The problem is, they are trying to evolve away from doctrine (for example, polygamy) that were originally represented as coming directly from God. Polygamy was presented as an essential practice if a man was to reach the highest degree of heaven (in Mormon lingo, the Celestial Kingdom). Here’s a link to a site that covers Joseph Smith’s revelations regarding Celestial Marriageand polygamy.
I’ve heard they don’t talk about polygamy in Mormon Sacrament Meeting and Sunday School anymore. In fact, I’ve talked to a number of past members who became angry and disenchanted when they found out they’d been lied to about such things. For example, some grew up thinking that Joseph Smith had only one wife, Emma.
When I was a child, we knew all about polygamy. We knew it was practiced in the past, and we knew it would be practiced in the next life. But we also knew it was grounds for excommunication (and against the law) if you practiced it in this life. It was kind of an odd concept because we lived around people who practiced polygamy: the main enclave of the FLDS (Warren Jeffs’ group) was just up the road. We saw the FLDS kids as weirdos, and yet they represented our past and our future, so in that sense we were weirdos too. Even among good Church members, there seems to be some confusion as to what to believe, but most of them accept and live according to what the current prophet tells them. This issue of doctrine changing in the Mormon Church is central to my novel; the father, Michael, represents a member of the church awash in the confusion caused by the Church’s attempt to change.
If the LDS Church ever does overcome its polygamist past, they may become just another religion. If so, the Media may well lose interest in covering them to the extent that they now do. But then, there’s always their stand on homosexuality, which is bound to keep them in the news for some time.
MW: To what extent is art-making (and fiction writing) encouraged in LDS schools? Can making art be a religious act for a Mormon?
ZM: Unlike Catholic and other private religious schools, there is no such thing as an LDS school (that I know of) until students reach the university level. (FLDS children are home schooled.) However, in Utah, at the junior and senior high school level, there is generally a Mormon Church-owned building right next to every school, where each year students can take time out from normal classes to take a religion class. This class is considered elective.
My siblings and I attended public school, as did everyone I grew up with. My teachers may or may not have been Mormon. I was aware that one of my teacher’s was a non-Mormon. She is the one that I loosely based Mrs. Jones on (the teacher in my novel). In her class, I painted a huge picture of the LDS Temple for the back wall of the classroom. There was no restriction against using Church images at school, but we didn’t study church doctrine there. We were encouraged to write and create art to the extent that any public school encourages such endeavors.
I have not made it a point to seek out Mormon artists in particular, but as I explore the internet I’ve noticed there are creative Mormons in all areas: painters, musicians, playwrights, authors, etc. Since finishing my novel, I’ve become aware of a number of Mormon literary sites on the internet, including A Motley Vision and the Association for Mormon Letters. I believe you have already met William Morris of A Motley Vision through Twitter, if not otherwise.
MW: Your most recent book addresses polygamy, which is something your own family struggled with. Press reports tend to portray polygamy as something primitive. Do you think the issue is simplified in media accounts?
ZM: It’s interesting that in my novel, and in my own family life, we struggled more with the “concept” of polygamy, than with the reality of it. Perhaps that is more difficult in some ways. Once you are living the principle, you have to find a way to adapt, but until you become part of a polygamous group, there is no way to deal directly with all the emotions that arise. For a woman like my mother, there was no “real” second wife taking her husband’s attention, there was only a phantom woman, and that woman would surely be more beautiful and perfect than any real woman could be. In reality, you might actually become friends with that woman. You might come to value the freedom a second wife might provide.
I expect that it might be easier to live a polygamous life if you have been brought up in that kind of environment. It would seem more natural. It would be what God wants you to do. One of the things that struck me while I was writing my book is how powerful religious doctrine is when it’s been given to us from the moment of birth. We take it in as truth, in the same way we take other more concrete things we are taught as children, abstract notions of God, the afterlife, and morality. If learned early enough they take on the same substance as other early-learning such as the notion of dog, or cat, or Momma.
We all grow up with our own indoctrinations. What we learn is taken as truth. As a result, we all have a conceptual system through which we make sense of the world. It doesn’t have to include religious concepts, but it has to be composed of something that helps us to choose between one thing and another. Religion helps us cope with the unknowable: our origin, death, the meaning of life. That is all well and good. What concerns me is the incredible power that is given to those people who lead others in their religious life, the people who say they speak for God. We can look around and see how that power has been abused on all levels. Religious leaders have used their role as interpreters of God to control others, to make money, to wage war, to dominate, and to abuse. Others have used it to do a lot of good in the world. Either way, a religious leader has a great deal of power.
My inclination is to warn all people to review what they have learned as children, like Beth in my story does, so that they will not be susceptible to manipulation by religious leaders. But I also know that faith is fragile, and it is very comforting to have faith, to have answers to the unknowable. I have experienced the tenuousness of stepping out on the limb of religious doubt. And it may be that once you start down that road, it’s hard to go back. This may give religious people doubts about doubting. Today, there is a lot of trouble in the world that originates from “you versus me-ism.” That is, the ever-present belief that my group is better than your group. Some of that arises from a defense of “my” faith versus “your” faith (as we are seeing in the Middle East). Sometimes it makes me wonder if religious belief and patriotism aren’t the root of all evil, because both are frequently used to separate and pit one group of humans against another.
I’ve strayed a long way from your original question, but what I’m trying to say is that all religious belief is primitive, to some extent. It is basic to human nature and always has been. But it is also complex and diverse and wonderful in its manifestations. It has been the inspiration for great art and architecture, the foundation of a rich diversity that creates culture. And yet, it has this other aspect that can be used to turn us against each other. The question is, how can we maintain our faith in the truth of our beliefs and at the same time allow that others’ truth is as valid and as valuable as our own? Is that possible?
MW: Other faiths have polygamist pasts, but much more ancient pasts. To what extent do Mormons have a unique struggle in this regard as a younger faith?
ZM: Yes, and many religious people all over the world still practice polygamy. In the Middle East, in Africa, and elsewhere. I don’t know enough about these religions to say what difficulties exist in their practice of polygamy.
As I said in my response to your first question, the LDS Church is a relatively new religion trying to move away from its connection to polygamy. But it is not the first and only church that has attempted to change its originating doctrine. I understand that other religions, including the Catholic Church are facing similar issues as they try to modernize. I was at a Book Expo earlier this year and talked to a woman who said how disconcerting it was for Catholics, particularly older Catholics, when the Vatican added seven new sins to the list of deadly sins. The new deadly sins include polluting, genetic engineering, being obscenely rich, drug dealing, abortion, pedophilia, and causing social injustice. While such changes are politically correct in our modern times, they can cause long-time members of a Church to question their faith. Perhaps it is because of that early childhood learning I discussed earlier. As long as doctrine remains the same as what you learned when you were a child, you have no impetus to doubt your beliefs. But once things begin to change, particularly if something is added to the doctrine that you don’t quite agree with, it can cause you to start questioning everything, as happened with the father in my novel. I imagine there are long discussions that take place before the leaders of any church decide to make such changes, but in the long run, they must feel the changes are necessary if they are to keep up with a changing world.
MW: You mention on your site that you are interested in how people come to believe what they believe. What are some of your own core beliefs that impact your writing, and how did you come to believe what you believe?
ZM: I’ve always been interested in what other people believe, and I tend to take on beliefs, temporarily, to see what those beliefs allow. Because most beliefs tend to exclude other beliefs, you end up with a certain set of possibilities to work with in terms of your thoughts, your behavior, and your decisions. Some beliefs are very expansive and allow you to live in a rich and diverse perceptive world. I tend to like those the best. Over time, I have gravitated toward the belief that all beliefs are just that, beliefs. They are subjective and arbitrary and interesting.
Let me give you an example. When I first began to attend the University of Utah, I took whatever classes I wanted to take. Mostly graduate classes, because they got into the meat of things I wanted to learn about. They were mostly classes that dealt with what people believe: anthropology, psychology, philosophy, literature. Eventually, I wrote a proposal for an interdisciplinary degree called, Human Cognition, in which I outlined a course of study in which I would examine the way a person’s belief system affected their perception.
I guess you could say that Torn by God is an extension of that special degree: I wrote the story to try and understand what my parents believed, and to experience (through my characters) what it would feel like to live under the influence of those beliefs.
MW: One of your characters believes he has had a prophetic experience, and he and his family suffer the consequences of that experience. Are there unique challenges and opportunities for Mormon artists given the possibility of personal revelation?
ZM: I am very interested in personal revelation. It is a concept that allows a person to have a personal and direct relationship with God, which I think, is the purest and safest relationship to have with God. I think my father’s belief in personal revelation was central to his personality. He always wanted to talk to God. It’s the reason he ends up being the muse for so many of my stories. I am currently working on a novel about Alzheimer’s as a state of enlightenment. It is also inspired by my father. When he was a young man in the Air Force, he spent some time in India. While there, he came into contact with Eastern philosophies that also allow a direct and personal relationship with God, or with The All. In some ways, in this new story, I’m giving my father a new set of beliefs to live his life by. Beliefs that are more aligned with Eastern philosophies, beliefs that he might have picked up and run with after his time in India. My thought is that those beliefs would have probably caused him and my mother less trouble. Maybe I’m just trying to give him a second chance with her.
MW: Who are some of your favorite Mormon writers?
I like Terry Tempest Williams, and I’ve read Dorothy Solomon Allred’s book, Daughter of the Saints: Growing Up in Polygamy (her father was the leader of one of those polygamist off-shoot groups). I don’t really know the work of too many published Mormon writers, but I will soon. I’ve been selected to be part of a literary book tour across several states with a dozen or so Mormon women writers. The tour will take place in the spring of 2010. I’m looking forward to meeting these women, and reading their work.
I read an article recently that said Mormon writers, especially young women, are “surging into the genre of young adult literature.” Stephenie Meyer, who wrote the best-selling Twilight series, is one example of that movement.
MW: What sort of public is there for Mormon fiction? Is there a temptation for Mormon writers to downplay their faith in their work to get published?
ZM: At the present time, it is difficult to get Mormon-themed fiction published. If it is mainstream LDS, and stays within acceptable guidelines of the Church, then maybe it will be published by Deseret Book, or one of the other LDS publishers. But if it goes outside the prescribed limits, then it’s hard to find a publisher, unless it has some element of scandal or controversy that might attract the attention of a mainstream publisher. Perhaps the movement of Mormon women writers into young adult fiction will help to change that. Or, there might be emerging publishing opportunities for Mormon writers as the publishing industry adopts new technologies that allow publishers to take on more projects at a lower cost.